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Another Jeff-Fox-of-Hoops-Manifesto generated discussion... of these recently retired NBA players, who should get in the Basketball Hall of Fame?

As per the previous two, there are those considered locks, and those considered "toss ups".
Locks...
Allen Iverson - In my honest opinion, perhaps the best "small man" to ever play the game.  Easily a first ballot candidate.

Shaquille O'Neal - Covered here...

Gary Payton - A beast of a point guard.  Helluva defender, and greatest remembered for being half of the Sonic Boom.


Toss-Ups
Chris Webber - C-Webb at one point was the best 4 playing the game. And when you include his HS (National HS Player of the Year), and somewhat-infamy-laden college career, then C-Webb's an easy inclusion into the Hall. Yes.

Alonzo Mourning - Zo... I'd like to think that he'll get into the Hall of Fame - it could be a close call, but I think his resume's good enough. Guy was sheer testament to willpower.
Sidenote: as a high school senior, Zo averaged 25 points, 15 rebounds and 12 blocks a game. That, is insane.
Yes.

Yao Ming - This is easy. If you consider the impact Yao Ming has had on global basketball, then he's in. Yes.

Steve Francis - Stevie Franchise certainly has his fans, and he definitely had a lot of flash... but I don't see much substance to his career. Good player, but no.

Sam Cassell - Again, a guy with some flair and interest... but despite having a knack for being in the right place at the right time, no. Simply not good enough to be a Hall of Fame member.

Stephon Marbury - If anyone could challenge Ron Artest as being the craziest player to have every graced the NBA hardwood, it's Starbury. Certainly made headlines in his time, and is one of the more philanthropic players the NBA's seen... but I can't see him in the Hall of Fame.

Dikembe Mutombo - Speaking of philanthropy, Mutombo. A great man, but a Hall of Famer? Hell yes. Anyone who wins the DPoY 4 times should be in (note that on Ben Wallace!). To any who disagree: you get the finger-wag.

Rasheed Wallace - The heart and soul of the Detroit resurgence. As Sheed went, so'd the Pistons. As a Lakers fan, I hated LA playing against him - but the guy was a warrior, and I still believe he deserves the HoF status that I have the other Pistons getting. Yes.

Anfernee Hardaway - Hell, I could honestly flip either way on Penny, but at the moment I'm feeling "no".

Part two of looking at the current generation of players, and who is expected to make the Basketball Hall of Fame - from the Western Conference.
As per The Basketball Hall of Fame: who gets in from today's players in the NBA's Eastern Conference? - same rules apply!


Considered locks...
Kobe Bryant - One of the true greats.  It's a pity so many find him so polarizing, because they're missing out on one of the historically great basketballers ever, hamstrung by their own small-mindedness.
    
Steve Nash - One of the best shooters to ever play the game... never mind the distribution skills!
   
Tim Duncan - A player for the ages.  History will remember Tim Duncan fondly.
   
Jason Kidd - Incredible durability paired with near-unmatchable point guard skills and leadership.
  
Dirk Nowitzki - Dirk's come so far.  From being considered as a perennial choker to being the undeniable man in the NBA Finals - verily against two of the best players in the NBA.  A clear choice.
  
Pau Gasol - As with Dirk, when you consider what he's done both internationally and in Europe, the guy is one of the best big men to play in this generation.
 

Questions still exist on the following...
Kevin Durant - At this point in time, I'm going with nuh-uh. Durant has enormous potential, and his Thunder could well be one of the powerhouses of Western Conference basketball. But to this point in time there's just not enough on his resume in a league that's more star-studded than a Gaga costume. Poignant tho', that at this point in time we're even considering him. Greg Oden is on the verge of becoming a cautionary tale... I wonder how often Portland wonder "what if?"

Marcus Camby - Actually closer than a lot of people are going to give him credit for. We all know his NBA career, but he had a better HS career than most NBA players, and College? He is second all-time in total blocked shots at the University of Massachusetts and the fourth-ever college player to have at least 300 total career blocked shots (336). In the '95/96 season, he was generally accepted as the best player in college hoops - winning the John R. Wooden Award and the Naismith College Player of the Year. In the NCAA tourney that year - he broke records with 43 blocks in 11 games. There was a bit of infamy involved that year too - Camby accepted cash from sports agents, and the UMass Final Four was nullified. Regardless, the guy was an amazing college player.
It's a near thing, but I'm gonna go with yes.

Deron Williams - It's difficult, but at this point in time I don't think D-Will's done enough to warrant inclusion... tho' I think by the time all's said and done, he'll most likely achieve enough to come close. But for now: no.

Ron Artest - I think the possibly-soon-to-be-Metta-World-Peace is one of the more intriguing nominations here. If you take away *who* he is, then he has the resume. One of the best defenders of our generation: an intimidating, lock-down defensive presence who could score as well. However, *who* he is and *who* he has been absolutely must be addressed too. But who is he? Is he the absolute menace who was moved from team-to-team, the centerpiece of the worst night in the history of the NBA? Or the guy who seems genuinely repentant for his past misdeeds, a spokesperson for mental health that recently won the J. Walter Kennedy Citizen Award.
I'm going against what I expect to be the grain, and I'm gonna say "yes". I think the distance he's traveled is amazing, and the guy deserves recognition.

Vince Carter - His dunk over Frederic Weiss deserves to be in the Hall, but Vince doesn't. No.

Grant Hill - A well-known and outstanding college career saves the guy - one of the best college defenders of this generation. There was a time where he was expected to be the next Jordan... before a series of soul-crushing injuries turned him into merely a 'good player'.  Yes.

Tony Parker - 3 time NBA champion, Finals MVP and a European player of the Year. It's a near thing, but the guy's in.

Manu Ginobli - Manu's achievements internationally, in Europe and in the NBA make this one of the easier choices: yes.

Shawn Marion - Umm... guy was only ever the 3rd wheel on good teams. No.

Peja Stojaković - His NBA career doesn't hold up to HoF standards, but his international and European credentials do. 3 times European Player of the Year? Yes.

Chris Paul - It was recently pointed out to me that nearly every NBA player was a superhero in high school. This is true, but Chris Paul? As a senior - 30.8 points, 9.5 assists, 5.9 rebounds, and 6.0 steals per game. That, is insane. He dominated and now holds nearly every offensive category record at Wake Forest, and has had a stellar NBA career matched with some phenomenal play internationally. In.
 

At the latest Bloguin Basketball Discussion Group meeting (chaired by Jeff Fox of Hoops Manifesto), we explored the notion of who would be Hall of Fame players from the current (or thereabouts) era.  First up, the Eastern Conference.



There were three categories to look at: 
Considered Locks
Kevin Garnett
Paul Pierce
Ray Allen

Retired
Shaquille O'Neal (in the Locks section)
Rasheed Wallace (my own addition, omitted from the voting slip - included in the 'questions section')

Questions still exist
LeBron James
Dwyane Wade
Amaré Stoudemire
Carmelo Anthony
Chauncey Billups
Tracy McGrady
Ben Wallace
Chris Bosh
Dwight Howard
Joe Johnson

Let's get into this.
For the Hall of Fame, we need some way to compare/contrast.  So I'll be using the Australian basketball fan's universal measure of greatness, the Sean Marks quotient (1-5).

Kevin Garnett - Despite my misgivings about who he is as a human being, KG is one of the best players of our generation.  An amazing competitor, and whilst he spent his best years as a T-Wolf, my memories of him will be wearing green.  Which is only right, as I despise him anyway.  Sure-fire HoFer.
   

Shaquille O'Neal - There are players that as a fan you have to feel blessed to have lived in the same era, to be able to watch him play.  Shaq is such a player.  Entertainment, humor and heart, all wrapped up in a cretaceously big package.  Kinda hurts to think of him as "Eastern Conference" when discussing the Hall.  He'll go in as a Laker tho'.
    

Ray Allen - Holder of the NBA's all-time leader in regular season three-point field goals made stat, and NBA champion.  Should have won the MVP for the '08 Finals too.  
  

Paul Pierce - The one-time self-proclaimed "Best Player In The World".  I think history will remember him as a better player than he was.  For my money, he's questionable as a "lock" for the Hall.


The "non-locks" of our era.  
Dwyane Wade - I think when the dust settles on Dwyane Wade's career, he'll be in the Hall of Fame.  For my money, he deserves to be in the Hall more than Paul Pierce does.  Would a ring or two more help his case?  For sure, but probably only the difference between being a first or second ballot.
So that's a "yes".


LeBron James - In my mind, LeBron James is the best player in basketball player in the world today.  But that doesn't mean history will remember him that way.  Because if he doesn't win a few rings, then he'll still get in, but it becomes "probably" rather than a certainty.  Because of all the "Kobe or LeBron" arguments, until LeBron does a little bit more at the very end of the season then there's really no discussion at all.
Even so, that's a "yes vote".


Amaré Stoudemire - Simply put, no.  Amaré Stoudemire's been a great player thus far, and he has the potential to be at the forefront of a New York revival that will be at the very least, most entertaining - if not amazing.  That's going to take some mighty big changes tho' - both from the perspective of what the Knicks can put on the hardwood, and what happens in the front office.  But for now, that's just a pipe-dream.  Just as Amaré in the Hall is.
No.


Carmelo Anthony - Read Amaré Stoudemire.


Chauncey Billups - It's hard to watch Chauncey now, and think "that's a Hall of Famer", especially looking through the lens of how many teams he's played for.  But despite his early nomadic years, in the days of his ascendancy, Mr Bigshot was one of the most feared players in the NBA.  The guy was the head/brains/ of the Detroit Pistons team that took the 2004 title off the mighty Lakers.  
Billups may not get into the Hall in his first try, but he will get in.  


Tracy McGrady - There were years where T-Mac's game was held in such high esteem that he was only just below Kobe Bryant.  Hard to believe now.  After injuries, the "first round hoodoo" and lack of effort decimated his game, Tracy McGrady's clearly not a Hall of Fame candidate.


Ben Wallace - One of the best defensive players to play in our generation, Ben Wallace's story is a testament to hard work and perseverance - he played with a toughness and will that belied his size.  Part of the Billups-lead Pistons, and if Billups was the brains of the operation, then Big Ben was it's spine.  Call him "the anti-TMac".  
Hell yes.


Chris Bosh - I have no idea why Chris Bosh is even on this list.  I mean... really?  Chris Bosh?  
HELL no.


Dwight Howard - Perhaps the toughest call on this end of the list.  At this point in time, no.  Dwight's going to have to do more than just be a great player on a bridesmaid team.  Not yet.


Joe Johnson - Again, I find myself uncomfortable at a name even appearing here.  A guy who's not even counted in the best ten players in the league today?  Nuh-uh.
 

Rasheed Wallace - I'm surprised that Sheed's not included, but I'm gonna put him up.  If Billups/Big Ben are voted on, why the hell not Sheed?  I cannot fathom why we'd have the brains and the spine of the Detroit Pistons, but leave out the heart and soul.  But that's just me.  Yes.
 


What did the rest of the Bloguin Discussion crew think?  Head over to Hoops Manifesto to read up on it.

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So, not content to let us rest, Jeff Fox (Hoops Manifesto) is on our backs again.  This time?  All time top ten players.  No positions, no provisos - just a list of the best.  Ooooookay then.  This should be a wild ride, here we go!

10. Oscar Robertson - Man... leaving The Dream off this list was hard, but it is what it is.  Oscar Robertson, he of the triple double, the Big O... the man who lead to the overhauling of the NBA's free agency and draft rules.  Number 10.
9. Tim Duncan - There will be people who will be aghast at Tim Duncan is only at #9.  "The greatest PF of all time only at number 9???".  Fair call, but if we included him as a center, where would he be?  6th?  7th?  Timmy is pure gold, a great player - one for the ages.  And on my top ten players of all time.  Let's leave it at that.
8. Shaquille O'Neal - Shaq... I can never think of his place within history without indulging in a bit of "what if...?"  What if he tried harder during the off-seasons?  What if he had the drive of Kobe or MJ?  Well... quite simply he wouldn't be Shaq any more I guess.  The Big Fella, biggest on this list, both literally and figuratively speaking.
7. Kobe Bryant - It's a pity so many people find him so polarizing, because they are missing out on being able to appreciate a talent the like of which has almost never been seen in the game of basketball.  Forget if you like him or not: just watch, and enjoy.  Besides, Bill Simmons now has him at 8th all time, which means he's #7.
6. Bill Russell - Another placement that's gonna rile some people.  Bill Russell was an otherworldly center.  One of 4 on this list (well... 5 if you're like me and think Timmy's a center), and like all of them: we'll never see their like again.  As Butch van Breda Kolff said, "Russell would ask, 'What do I need to do to make my teammates better?'  Then he'd do it."  So true.
5. Wilt Chamberlain - Statistically, on an individual basis, the number one guy on this list.  On what an individual player can achieve, set the bar so high that it will never be reached.  Never.
4. Larry Bird - People talk of MJ's determination, Kobe's passion... but Bird was on a par with them.  The only difference was that whilst they ran hot, Bird's fury burnt cold.  Guy wouldn't give an inch.  Bird took each game on a personal level, and played every play as if opposition were an affront - he was a ferocious competitor.
3. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar - You could switch Magic's name with Roger Murdock's, and I wouldn't argue... and if you're looking at the game of basketball rather than simply the NBA, then forget his Airness: Kareem's #1.  
His skyhook was the surest shot in NBA history.  
And even in his autumnal years as a 40+ year old center, he remained one of the best players in the league.  Sure, everyone remembers Magic's amazing, series-clinching game 6 (45/15/7) playing out of position (at CENTER) in game 6 of the 80 Finals.  But it was Kareem who won the first 3 games for the Lakers, and averaged 33/14 with better than 4 blocks a game for the 5 games he played... and Magic took home the Finals MVP.
2. Magic Johnson - Amazing, amazing player.  No-one made the game look more effortless than Magic, no-one enjoyed the game more than he did.  And as a Laker fan, it's tough.  I think that Kareem's been grossly underrated as a player, and a large part of that is Magic.  Both should be appreciated - Magic is, Kareem is not (it's kinda weird - being a Laker fan in this position, but I'm not ripping on Magic, just bemoaning the lack of appreciation for Kareem Abdul-Jabbar).  The war he waged with Larry Bird was incredible, and their battles lifted the Laker/Celtics rivalry to new levels.  Do yourself a favour and read "When the Game was Ours".
1. Michael Jordan - If you need it explained, why are you here?
  

Rob/Brumbygg's take on the Top Centers of All Time...

10: Bill Walton – due to injuries Walton didn't play all that much over his 10 year NBA career and his numbers don't stack up against many of the greats. However, he won a title with a no-name brand Portland team as well as a second with the 86 Celtics. Walton was one of the more technically gifted Centers with a great understanding of the game. Something that continues to be demonstrated in the announcing booth – if you can make sense of what he is saying!

9: Patrick Ewing – twice NBA finalist, no championships. Despite his lack of titles Ewing is deserving of a place on this list. A great defensive player (despite always being in foul trouble) Ewing could score too. Should have won a title in 94 against the Rockets, but John Starks' all-time Game 7 bomb ensured that Patrick would go home empty handed.

8: David Robinson – Before the Twin Towers there was just The Admiral. A 7 feet 1 almost unstoppable juggernaut, who could hit the mid-range jumper or take you to the hole. Needed Timmy D to make it to the next level with the Spurs, but still an outstanding player in his own right. His career numbers would have been even more impressive if he hadn't completed his 2 year Navy commitment.

7: George Mikan – George Mikan forced the NBA to bring in 24 second shot clock, widened the lane from 6 feet to 12 feet and established goaltending rules. Oh, and he won 7 titles! "Without 99 (Mikan), there is no me" – Shaquille O'Neal.

6: Moses Malone – After anyone who played for the Celtics, Moses Malone was my favourite player to watch in the late 70s and 80s. Played on a great 76ers team in 83 with Dr J, Andrew Toney and Mo Cheeks to win his only championship. A beast, a workhorse and almost guaranteed 20 and 10 double-double every night. Also shot free throws at 76% over his career – stats that Shaq could only dream of!

5: Hakeem Olajuwon – If Hakeem had been a foot shorter he would have been one of the best PGs the game has ever seen! His agility, ball handling skills and speed enabled him to blow past his opponents with ridiculous ease. A great defender with an astounding career steals total. Houston's Dream, certainly David Robinson's nightmare!

4: Shaquille O'Neal – Proved that you can be big, but also athletic. Shaq's ability to dominate a game was incredible. Trips to the finals with 3 teams and has 4 championships. Had his ego not been as big as his body, he could have ended up with even more titles. Oh, and maybe if he had worked on his free throws a little!

3: Wilt Chamberlain – Statistically the best Center to ever play the game with career averages of 30ppg and 23rpg, the only player to average over 40ppg in a season or to drop 100 points in a game. Wilt ranks here for me because of the stats over the titles.

2: Bill Russell – 11 titles in a 13 year career! The best defensive center to ever play the game, who revolutionised the ways teams played defense. Blessed with great speed and agility, Russell averaged 22 rebounds per game over his career. No one defines the term 'winner' better than Bill Russell.

1: Kareem Abdul-Jabbar – The cranky, always scowling, old Kareem at the end of his career is not the guy who dominated the league for so long. Kareem was a high school legend, a college superstar and the best Centre to grace the hardwood in the history of the NBA. 6 titles, 6 MVPs, all-time leading points scorer and owner of one of the most beautiful and unstoppable shots the game has ever seen – the skyhook. As a Celtics guy, Kareem was the most-hated Laker in the 80s, but it came with a lot of (grudging) respect.

 

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The anchor.  Suitably, of all the positional "top tens", last.  Hoops Manifesto's Jeff Fox called us in to stake out where Shaq really does fit in... so here we go.  
Heading into this list, I thought that this was going to be very, very difficult.  But actually, it wasn't.  The names were clear in my head... and the top 5 or 6 were clear as well - as was #10.  7-9, could be moved around a bit - but I am content with where they ended up too (worth noting that if Tim Duncan was to be considered a center - as he should be, I'd probably have him 6 or 7).

10. Bill Walton - Walton was an absolute technician of the game, to an extent that was surprising in such a big man.  And but for the injuries, he'd be top 5 on this list.  The guts and determination and the very heart and soul of Rip City.
9. Patrick Ewing - Ewing was a beast of a center.  The Knicks just never had enough talent around him to get a title.  Sans Jordan, Ewing declared it the year of the Knicks... but in "sans-Jordan-years", Ewing's Knickerbockers couldn't get it done.  Came close against the Rockets... but 'close' and $5 will get you a cup of coffee.
8. David Robinson - Fast, determined, and one helluva competitor.  The Admiral eventually got his two titles, but it took the presence of Tim Duncan for that to happen.
7. George Mikan - The original.  The very first true center as we've come to know them.  How good was he?  The back-bone, the anchorl of 7 championships.  That good.  Mikan casts a long shadow on every other name on this list. 
6. Moses Malone - Almost the forgotten man on this list.  Held court for a decade, and by "held court" I mean dominated it.  Not quite as big as some of his peers, he more than made up for it by playing with a combined intelligence and feroicity that's rarely been seen.
5. Hakeem Olajuwon - At both ends of the floor, The Dream had few peers.  Big man size, small man skills.  Hakeem possessed one of the most recognizable moves of all time in basketball.  I'm talking about "the dream shake", grace in a man that size is simply never seen.  And with The Dream, we saw it night in, night out.
4. Shaquille O'Neal - No one, and I mean no-one was more physically gifted for basketball than Shaq.  
He was bigger than you.  
He was quicker than you.  
Unfortunately, he never had the drive of Kobe or Jordan... because if he had, I think it quite possible that we'd be talking about a center as the Greatest Of All Time.
3. Bill Russell - The best defensive center to ever play the game, period.  The way he played defense changed the game of basketball.  Had a pretty good game the other end of the floor too.  And as Kobe Bryant often points out - the all-time leader in the only statistic that matters: titles.
2. Wilt Chamberlain - Statistically, does The Big Dipper have any peers at all?  His single-minded pursuit of greatness was awe-inspiring... but he only got the two titles he won late in his career, his nemesis Bill Russell's Celtics being just that little bit better - Wilt never had the supporting cast that Russell did.  
As a player?  Completely dominating.
1. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar - Of grace, of man, and the indefensible sky hook.
Amazingly enough, I think Abdul-Jabbar is perhaps one of the most underrated players of all time.  "Ranked #1 center, yet underrated?  How so?" I hear you ask...  
Well, when we talk about the GOAT, and who could challenge Jordan's status for that epithet, Kareem's name is almost never mentioned.  And it should be.  
Perhaps it was his dour demeanor - Kareem could be one testy S.O.B.  Even now with age, whereas Bill Russell has mellowed, there is still at times an ill humor present that is quite saddening from such a great man.  
Still, his resume stands up to anyone's who has played the game:
- 6 NBA Titles 
- 6 MVPs
- 2 Finals MVPs
- 15 All NBA teams (10 1st teams, 5 2nd)
- 10 All D teams (5 1st, 5 2nd)
- 19 All Star appearances
And if you talk about the GOAT not being simply just NBA, but HS/College too, then Lew Alcindor/Kareem Abdul-Jabbar has no peer.  None at all.
Not even Jordan.
His place in history is misunderstood, at times, even by Kareem himself. 

 

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Rob/Brumbygg's take on the 10 greatest PFs of all time... 

10: Dennis Rodman – the Worm was a defensive beast and a rebounding freak. His 6 titles with 3 teams is a testament to his results overshadowing his weirdness. Career scoring average of 7.3ppg sends him down my list, although others may rank him higher.

9: Dave DeBusschere – Played in the league from 62-74 (so even before my time) but was considered one of the best defenders in the league. Won 2 titles with the Knicks and averaged a double-double over his career.

8: Dirk Nowitzki – Probably would have been the unlucky 11th guy on this prior to winning the championship this year. One of, if not the, best Europeans to play in the NBA, Dirk is incredibly difficult to defend due to his ability to hit shots from almost anywhere.

7: Kevin Garnett – One of the more intense members of this list! A steal/gift from the T-Wolves after a glittering regular season career marred by an inability to go deep into the playoffs. KG arrived in Boston looking for a ring and was probably the single biggest reason that Boston won #17 and his injury the following year is probably the single biggest reason that Boston didn't repeat. The defensive intensity of Rodman but with the ability to score places him higher on the list.

6: Kevin McHale – one of the original Big 3 and the man who gave away KG. Boston has a lot to thank Kevin McHale for! His agility and freakishly long arms made him almost impossible to stop in the paint. Twice led the league in field goal percentage with over 60%! Even more impressive were his 2 appearances in Cheers as himself!

5: Bob Pettit – Before Bob Pettit the term Power Forward didn't exist. The first player to reach 20,000 points and the 3rd highest career rebounding average.

4: Charles Barkley – Sir Charles was undersized for this position, but became one of the greatest rebounders in the history of the NBA. Not only could he score and rebound, Charles had great touch and average 4 assists per game.

3: Karl Malone – The Mailman delivered everything but an NBA title. Malone and Stockton was one of the great double acts in the history of the league. Played in the league 19 years and played in the post-season 19 times. No championships, but that kind of longevity and results counts for a lot.

2: Elvin Hayes – The Big E was a pure scorer who led the league in scoring his rookie year. Won a title with the Bullets in 78 to go with 2 other finals appearances. His turnaround jumper from the baseline was as much of a certainty as death and taxes.

1: Tim Duncan – Can play the pivot, post up, hit the mid range jumper and kill you in so many methodical, almost boring ways. Does everything well and has 4 championships to back it up. The best PF of all time and one of the best players of a generation of greats.

 

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You know the drill by now.  Jeff Fox of Hoops Manifesto sets the gig: this week it's our Top Ten Power Forwards.  Before doing this, it's probably important to share my opinion on Tim Duncan.  If I had to categorize him into a particular role, it would be at center, not as a power forward.  But Jeff sets the rules, and for the intents and purposes of this list, Timmy'll be a #4.
Sidenotes:

• for an LA Lakers blog, it never ceases to amaze me the lack of depth LA've had at this spot.  Amazing to think that Pau Gasol may well be the best power forward to don the uniform...
• This list is FULL of guys I despised, or at the very least disliked... or still do.  Amazing.

Ever onward...

10. Dennis Rodman - No player before or after played the position of power forward quite like Dennis Rodman.  Both as far as actual "playing" goes, and the way he went about being an NBA player.  The guy was OUT there.  Way out there.  But damn, he sure took the pressure off the Bulls having a bit of a weak spot at center...
9. Dave DeBusschere - Actually a Major League pitcher for a few seasons with the White Sox.  Once pitched a shut-out.  But basketball, the guy was physical: tough as nails and a phenomenal defender. 
8. Dirk Nowitzki - Before last season, it's questionable as to whether I'd even have Dirk on this list.  Don't get me wrong: very few players at this position are as offensively talented as Dirk... but prior to the 2011 Finals, there were times when he was found wanting.  2011 wasn't one of them.  He flat-out put the Mavs on his back, and they rode him to a championship.  Simply awe-inspiring.
7. Bob Pettit - One could argue that Pettit was the first ever power forward.  A beast of a player - the guy was the first to get 20,000 points, and his average of 16.2 rpg is behind only Chamberlain and Russell.  Beat Russell for a championship, and scored 50 in game six.  
How you like THEM apples (said in my best Matt Damon Boston accent)?
6. Kevin McHale - This, was tough.  Who here?  Garnett, or McHale?  Went with McHale, but it was close.  McHale was a key member of the Bird Celtics... but they were the BIRD Celtics, and in the end, that wins Garnett #5.
5. Kevin Garnett - Kevin Garnett will probably go to the Hall of Fame as a Celtic, which when you consider his career in full, and where he was at his best - it's kind of a pity.  He was a much better player as a Timber Wolf, but it was as a Celtic that he came into his own.  
My opinion is that Ray Allen was the best player of the 2008 Finals, Pierce a close second.  But KG was the most important player on that team, and it's not even close.  I scoff at anyone who tells me that Boston is "Paul Pierce's team".
4. Elvin Hayes - The Big E.  Quite possibly the most talented scorer on this list.  The Big E took the NBA by storm as a rookie, and was the last rook to top the scoring average list.  In his first season, he lead the NBA with 28.4 points per game, and averaged 17.1 rebounds per game.  As a rookie.  Yet, he didn't win the Rookie of the Year: future team-mate Wes Unseld did.
3. Charles Barkley - No title to his name, but is there anyone who'd deny that the Round Mound of Rebound deserves his spot here?  Forget that: Sir Charles was a player who played far, far larger than his listed 6' 6".  He was Shaq-like in his presence. Speaking of which, I look forward to those two being on set together!
2. Karl Malone - But for a knee injury, Malone may have gotten that elusive ring in 2004.  But history's done, and we'll remember him as one of the best players to never win a championship.  
1. Tim Duncan - There, happy?

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On June 1st, 2011, Shaquille O'Neal announced his retirement, ending the career of one of the best big men the game has ever seen... and clearly one of the greats of his generation.
But was he the best big man of his generation?  There are those that would - without hesitation - point to Tim Duncan as holding that honorific.  This is a debate that's been ongoing pretty much since they both hit the floor.  Hell, we covered it here 2 and a half years ago...

This, is perhaps one of the greatest questions facing mankind.  Well, at least those of us interested in basketball!  So I posed this task to a number of august writers in the field of basketball.:

Well, now that Shaq's retired, and Timmy's a shell of what he once was - basically a run down on who you think was the better big man of the generation: Shaq or Timmy (and a side-consideration on that, what do you consider Tim Duncan to be - a PF or a C?). On whatever basis you choose, make your choice, and support that choice with whatever arguments you see fit.  

Involved in the ensuing discussion: 
Matt Moore - CBS Sports & Hardwood Paroxysm
College Wolf - T-Wolves Blog
Ezra Padua - The Purple and Gold Blog
Scott/TBF - With Malice
John Karalis - Red's Army & Crossover Chronicles
Jeff Clark - Celtics Blog
Jeff Fox - Hoops Manifesto
Rob/Brumbygg - With Malice
Michael De Leon - Project Spurs
And... me. 

So let's get to it, and then post all this, let's get to it in the comments section!
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Matt Moore, CBS Sports & Hardwood Paroxysm

The question essentially boils down to whether popularity matters. If we're looking at impact, statesmanship, role, proficiency, all-around efficiency, and what he gave his team night in and night out, it's Duncan. But Duncan wasn't the cultural phenomenon. His highlights aren't played over and over again. He never broke the backboard, nailed the oop dunk and ran down like Oprah had given him a car, never gave the postgame pressers or dropped his own nicknames. Duncan just won, and produced, and worked. None of this is new information.

But in the framing of sports relevance and legacy, isn't popularity important? Shouldn't the fact that Shaq was in "Blue Chips" and a 311 video and did the "Kobe ass taste" rap and everything else weigh in? If we're talking about this in the strictest of terms, an athlete's job is to entertain, and Duncan entertained the peaceful sleep of the bored more often than not. Don't take this as a slant. Duncan shouldn't be punished for his quiet consistency any more than Shaq should be punished for being great television.

But we're remiss if we overlook how deeply Shaq penetrated the global consciousness, how far he spread the idea of an NBA star as a celebrity. No one before or since really crossed over culturally the way Shaq did. Jordan crossed over as a brand, but his personality was glass, or maybe more effectively diamond. All you saw was the shine and the hardened exterior. Shaq you saw the full weight of the clown prince, the impact of his dominance, the shadow of his identity on a global scale.

Duncan was just a silhouette who passed through, and you had to really, really look at it to see how beautiful it was.

So yes, Shaq had the better career; yes, his impact was greater; yes, he will be remembered more. But if we forget what Duncan could do with his range, with his variety of beginning and ending moves (the things which verify him as a power forward), if we lose sight of the memory of all those hits from the hammer that the quote in the Spurs locker room talks about, we've forgotten what made Duncan great. And losing sight of that blinds us from his epic statue that stands in the landscape of professional basketball.

It depends on how you look on it, but you'd better look fast and look close. We'll never see anything like either of them ever again.

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College Wolf, T-Wolves Blog

Revisiting this debate two and a half years later, I still think the answer to the question has got to be Shaq. He was overwhelmingly my selection in 2009, and despite the fact that he's played about half as many games as Duncan since then, he still gets my vote. What has changed since we first had this discussion? The answer is nothing, really. So how can you pick Duncan over one of the best, and most dominant big men of all time? I don't see how you can. They both still have four championships, and Shaq still has greater raw stats in almost every category. While he has played about 150 more career regular season games than Duncan, it's deceiving considering he's played the past few seasons as a shell of his former self, at the ages of 37-39 years old. He added basically nothing to his career numbers, while Duncan has played at a decently high level at "only" the ages of 33-35 years old.

Duncan has made two less All-Star games than Shaq, but has one more MVP award (although we all know Shaq got completely hosed when Nash "won" it.) Really, these guys are two of the best big men of all-time, although Shaq was more dominant and physically imposing during his prime. He was quite literally, unstoppable. Duncan is great in his own right and considered the better all-around player, but you can't really say the same thing about him being a whirlwind unstoppable force during his career, like Shaq was.

With these two guys, I don't know how you can definitively rank them since they are so close in terms of basketball greatness and overall success. So in that regard, I think there is a large degree of personal preference that comes into play here. Do you like power and brute force? Or precision and artistry? I think the general populace would most likely pick Duncan, as he's had much better stats the past 2.5 years (but the age and health of the two players most definitely needs to be considered!) Regardless of that, you simply cannot discount the utter dominance of Shaq during his career, all the way up until he won his fourth title.

Perhaps Basketball-Reference.com can settle this debate once and for all? Taking everything into consideration, they list Shaquille O'Neal as the #14 best player in the history of the NBA, which is ranked #1 amongst anyone that played in the NBA through last season. How does Tim Duncan compare? B-R has him listed at #21 and #4, respectively.

P.S. Lastly, regarding whether Duncan was a PF or C, I do not entirely know how you can answer that. I mean, as far as I can tell he could pretty much interchangeably play either position. I guess it probably just depends on what position the other Spurs big man on the court with him was more comfortable in playing; as well as who Duncan was matched up against from the opposition during any particular game.

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Ezra Padua - The Purple and Gold Blog

First of, yes, Duncan is a power forward simply because his game fits the mold of a power forward more than that of a center.

It's absurd to some, but I don't really see the problem of comparing Tim Duncan to Shaquille O'Neal. Both are dominant frontcourt players who happen to have the same amount of championship rings, Finals MVP trophies and, more importantly, played in the same era.

Duncan is obviously the more well-rounded basketball player in terms of fundamentals and skills. He could score in the low block or from 17 feet with his signature bank shot. He can pass, block shots, rebound and has one of the highest IQ for a big man ever.

But I will have to go with the one and only Shaq on this one. O'Neal may not be anywhere a precision tool as Tim is but count how many bigs in NBA history who can, not only dominate games the way he could, but also make the guy defending him look as helpless as anyone trying to stop a Mack truck from backing up.

You have a better chance of preventing any of Tim's go-to moves than stopping Shaq from getting deep into the lane and throwing down one of his two-handed backboard-shattering dunks. Duncan has more ways to score the ball, but Shaq scored more points per game than Tim because of his unstoppable power game. O'Neal is superior in strength, agility and athleticism compared to Duncan. He's also the better defender, shot-blocker, rebounder and never complained about having to defend the centers in the league.

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It kills me that there's no NBA, and yes: I get that it'd be the off-season now, but there's nothing at all: no trades, no movement, nothing.  And it looks as if we might have to put up with exactly that for quite a while to come.  

Fortunately, there's still hoops to be found.  There are the various summer leagues, and of course there's the Sprite Slam Dunk Showdown.

The LA Showdown turned out to be one of the best dunk contests of all-time and the dunker that came out victorious was none other than Kenny Dobbs aka "The Dunk Inventor".
With millions of Youtube views to his name, Dobbs wanted to show that he's not a "video dunker" that needs multiple tries and video editing to showcase his skills. He pulled out some pretty wicked variations of all the past dunk contest winners - from jumping over somebody while covering his eyes to going between the legs over multiple people.  Check it out for yourself:



California is also represented by two other dunkers that won the Online Submission part of the contest.  AirDogg from LA - known for appearing in music videos and commercials like the last Sprite one with LeBron James, and the wickedly-hopping lil' guy: 5'11 Exile from Sacramentio.

Head over to the Sprite Slam Dunk Showdown to vote for your favourites... or follow them on twitter @spriteslamdunkshowdown